Philip Hollobone: Low-tax, high-enterprise economies, particularly those in the far east, are powering ahead because the burden of Government regulation there is low and decreasing. What efforts have the Department taken to send civil servants to see how other nations do such things rather better than the United Kingdom?

Tony Lloyd: The measures that the Government have already taken are important, but if we are genuinely to protect vulnerable groups, perhaps the biggest single thing to do now is to stop the energy companies—the big six to which he spoke, which have been accused directly of collusion and price fixing—effectively robbing the consumer. Is not reference to the competition authorities important, so that the public, and vulnerable groups in particular, know that they are not being ripped off and robbed by those energy companies?

Gareth Thomas: I would be very happy to meet my hon. Friend and anybody he wishes to bring with him to discuss that. Significant work is already being done to increase the opportunity for young people to go into civil engineering. I am sure that he will be aware of the establishment of the national skills academy for construction and of the programme that the Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills has under way to invest in modern apprenticeships and a new diploma course. Of course we cannot be complacent about the skills that we need for this country's economy in future; on that basis, I would be happy to meet him and those who he wants to bring with him.

Harriet Harman: The business for next week will be as follows.
	Monday 3 March—Continuation of consideration in Committee of the European Union (Amendment) Bill [9th Allotted Day].
	Tuesday 4 March—Continuation of consideration in Committee of the European Union (Amendment) Bill [10th Allotted Day], so far not completed on 3 March.
	Wednesday 5 March—Continuation of consideration in Committee of the European Union (Amendment) Bill [11th Allotted Day] covering clause 8, the schedule, new clauses and new schedules.
	Thursday 6 March—A debate on international women's day.
	Friday 7 March—Private Members' Bills.
	The provisional business for the week commencing 10 March will include the following.
	Monday 10 March—Estimates [2nd Allotted Day]. There will be a debate on Northern Rock and banking reform, followed by a debate on London Underground and the public-private partnership Agreements.
	At 10pm the House will be asked to agree all outstanding estimates.
	Tuesday 11 March—Proceedings on the Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill, followed by remaining stages of the European Union (Amendment) Bill.
	Wednesday 12 March—My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will open his Budget statement.
	Thursday 13 March—Topical debate: Subject to be announced, followed by continuation of the Budget debate.
	Friday 14 March—Private Members' Bills.
	The House may wish to be reminded that we will rise for the bank holiday at the end of business on Thursday 20 March and return on Tuesday 25 March.
	I should also like to inform the House that the business in Westminster Hall for 20 and 27 March will be as follows.
	Thursday 20 March—A debate on creative industries.
	Thursday 27 March—A debate on the report from the Quadripartite Committee on strategic export controls: 2007 Review.

Paul Murphy: The hon. Gentleman is right. With the Olympics coming to our country, there is an opportunity for Welsh men and women to train and take part in those games and the various spin-offs. Because the Olympics are in London, that can help Welsh sports people. May I also tell the hon. Gentleman that I was at the match on Saturday when Wales defeated Italy by a rather large margin. One hopes that in the two remaining matches in Dublin and in Cardiff, against Ireland and against France, we will indeed get the grand slam.

Paul Murphy: I shall certainly look into that for my hon. Friend and be in touch with him.
	Wales is small in geographical terms, but big in impact, and the phrase "a small, clever country" is applicable and should be said many times here and in Wales.
	It is also important that our economy has benefited and our people's lives are improved because we are part of the UK. The benefits of the devolved Assembly in Wales, including making Ministers more accessible to the people and providing greater accountability, must be set alongside the benefits that we receive from membership of the UK, such as the fact that 46,000 people have benefited from the new deal in Wales. We can learn from each other.
	For example, the UK Government, and England in particular, benefit from what we do in Wales, including the establishment of the first children's commissioner, the legislation for which I remember putting through the House some years ago, and probably the best and most sophisticated free bus travel for the over-60s in the UK, which has now been adopted in other parts of our country. We, too, benefit, for example from the work on hospital waiting lists, which we discussed yesterday in Welsh questions; ideas that flow from initiatives in England. In addition, we play our part in the British-Irish Council and can learn from Scotland, the Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man.
	That brings me to devolution itself and the role of Members of Parliament in terms of a post-devolution Wales that is nevertheless still very much part of the UK. I do not believe for one second that we should reduce the number of Welsh Members of Parliament. It is crazy to suggest that we should have fewer MPs and therefore less influence in this place. Until there are considerable changes in the constitutional set-up in the UK, the number of MPs should remain the same. Nor do I believe for one second that we should be inferior Members of Parliament to anybody else. We should play our part in the deliberations of this House, of which we should be fully paid-up Members. We should represent all our constituencies and constituents in this place and in every aspect of the work of the House of Commons.

David Davies: In that case, does he agree that Welsh Members of Parliament should be able to ask questions about how the health service, the education system and the local government funding formula in Wales operate? Does he further agree that it is unfair that we cannot do that at the moment?

Paul Murphy: Yes, that issue has exercised me in the past few weeks. Proper cross-border arrangements are important. At the moment we are looking at the development of a cross-border protocol to ensure that such matters are dealt with properly. The hon. Gentleman's point is important.
	I touched briefly on the issue of scrutiny, because my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon (Dr. Francis) is here. The Welsh Affairs Committee, which he chairs, does important work in overseeing the new process. I hope that the Committee is not overburdened by what has happened. He might catch your eye later, Madam Deputy Speaker, and comment on such things. In the next few months, there will come a time when he will have to look back at and monitor how the process has developed and consider any possible improvements or necessary changes.
	I turn to the future of the arrangements. The Assembly will have a convention to ascertain whether there is any appetite for a referendum on more powers; we shall wait and see what happens. However, at the same time it is so important to the people whom we represent that we do not lose sight of the issues that matter to them. However important constitutional matters are—and they are important—at the end of the day, the issues for Welsh people are about schools, hospitals, transport and jobs.
	We should not forget the issue of local government, which delivers services at the front line. It includes the organisations and elected bodies closest to the people of Wales. We should remember that the governance of Wales involves not only us in this place and the Assembly, but our local council chambers. I hope that it will be recognised that Labour local authorities deliver for the Welsh people, who will get the chance to exercise their franchise in a few months.
	There is nothing wrong in feeling comfortable with the current arrangements—comfortable with the fact that we can be British and Welsh. We can rejoice in the fact that we win our rugby games, that our nation of Wales prospers and develops and that the Assembly does a good job in delivering our services. However, we can also be proud to be part of the United Kingdom, which produced the national health service that is the envy of the world and which produced the welfare state, which protects the most vulnerable in our community. There is nothing wrong in rejoicing in both those aspects of government. Above all, Welsh Members of Parliament are privileged to represent Welsh people here, and to play our part in shaping the course of the United Kingdom and our own country of Wales.

Roger Williams: It is a great pleasure to debate Welsh issues in this Chamber—an opportunity that we too rarely have. May I also say what a pleasure it is to follow the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr. Hain) and to put on the record my appreciation of his helpful co-operation with me when he was in office. Today, he has demonstrated his great knowledge not only of the Welsh scene and the opportunities available to Wales and Welsh people, but of the potential impediments to the necessary developments. He is very realistic in his assessment, but he is nearly always optimistic for Wales—an approach that I greatly appreciate. The right hon. Gentleman will also be remembered for taking the devolution settlement in the right direction—perhaps not at the pace that some of us wanted, but certainly in the right direction. He will be well remembered for that.
	I should also like to put on the record how much I and other hon. Members enjoyed the service in St. Mary Undercroft. It was a memorable experience, to which the contribution of the children has already been mentioned. I would also like to reflect a little on the homily preached by the archdeacon by saying how apt it is to celebrate the life of St. David and, indeed, to celebrate the Welsh nation on that special day. We should not be niggardly or parsimonious in our celebrations; we should be truly generous in pointing out that nationality is not just for our benefit, but something to share with others, including the United Kingdom and, indeed, farther and greater reaches across the world.
	I welcomed the Secretary of State for Wales to his new post yesterday and I do so again. He has served in various positions in government with great distinction. I must, however, raise some concerns about his role. I have no doubt whatever that the Secretary of State will work with colleagues in Westminster and Cardiff on transferring legislative competence to the Assembly, but I expect Wales's representative in the Cabinet to be passionate about devolution and committed to extending the Assembly's role. The Secretary of State's views on devolution, however, are on the record and I find it difficult to believe that he will be able to reconcile his past comments with the changes that Liberal Democrats feel are necessary. The Government must do away with the halfway house that they have created, whereby Assembly Members have to come begging cap in hand for the power to make their own laws.
	The Secretary of State has been keen to shake off his tag of being a devo-sceptic and prefers to call himself a devo-realist; well, here is a dose of realism for him. In the 10 years since Wales has had the Assembly a great deal has been achieved, often on a cross-party basis. Wales has rejected Labour's regressive top-up fee regime and has made bus travel free for the over-60s and the disabled. The Assembly has also made health spending a priority and has introduced a vital scheme to help Wales's post offices stay sustainable.
	There are still many areas where the Assembly should be making decisions but cannot. For instance, Wales should be able to take a lead on combating climate change by developing its own immense natural resources of wave and wind power in order to provide clean renewable energy and by encouraging energy efficiency through setting better building standards and introducing smart metering. On large-scale energy projects, however, including new nuclear build, decisions still lie with the UK Government, not in Wales. Building regulations are also a reserved matter. It is frustrating because, with the right tools, Wales could become a Mecca for green energy.
	As a realist, the Secretary of State should recognise that if the new devolution settlement works at the moment, it is built on shifting sands. There is a progressive consensus in Wales, but to protect it, the Secretary of State would do well to keep his eyes on what happens in Westminster.

Roger Williams: Everyone in the Chamber values the work of the Committee but does my hon. Friend feel that the Committee will be able to provide full scrutiny of the legislation coming out of the Assembly, along with the valuable work that the Committee does in monitoring the work of the Wales Office and Welsh issues?

David Davies: I thank the hon. Gentleman. Following on from that, we must consider what happens to people who are going into the justice system and into prison. I do not believe that the figures bandied around are particularly accurate. The average figure for keeping someone in prison is much lower than people realise, because the figures generally used take into account the high cost of category A prisons. Nobody should put that into the cost considerations because, as far as I am aware, nobody—not even Liberal Democrats—thinks that people in category A prisons should be out and about on the loose. The actual cost of putting someone in prison is probably about £25,000 to £30,000 a year. One must remember that the vast majority of those entering the system are already on full benefits—they are rarely those working in nine-to-five jobs and paying taxes—so whether we like it or not, the net cost to the taxpayer is considerably less.
	The Government should remember their own 2000 figure that crime costs £60 billion a year, yet we spend only £2 billion imprisoning people. Again on their figures—those of the Carter report in 2003—half that £60 billion cost is down to 100,000 people, of whom only 15,000 are in prison at any given time. Based on the Government's own figures, if the prison population were to be doubled, the extra cost to the taxpayer would be about £2 billion and the saving would be about £30 billion.
	Clearly, I would not want people to be thrown into a Dickensian hell-hole—if any exists in the Prison Service; I have not seen any—but I would like more schemes of the sort that are used in Usk prison, in my constituency, that enable people to obtain vocational skills, which they can use when the leave prison. It is simply not possible to provide such skills in the space of a few months, because often the first thing that needs to be done is to address anger management problems, or alcohol and drug problems. People can then be taken into some form of educational process; it is not something that can be done in a matter of weeks or months, because it takes a year or two. I want a humane prison system that keeps people in for longer but treats them in a humane fashion and sends them out with the ability to live a law-abiding life.

Nick Ainger: I refer specifically to my own constituency, where the fall in unemployment—according to the latest Library figures and the claimant count figures—makes us 11th out of 646 constituencies. We have seen tremendous improvement on unemployment and employment, and one reason has been the clear success in my constituency of objective 1 funding—now convergence funding. The county council, the Welsh Assembly Government and the private sector have worked well together on some significant investments. Not least of those is the Bluestone project, which I know my right hon. Friend the Member for Neath has visited and which has the potential to create 600 new jobs when it opens this summer.
	My right hon. Friend the Member for Neath mentioned renewable energy. The technium in Pembroke dock was created specifically to bring together the private sector and universities in Wales to develop renewable and alternative energy, develop new products, improve existing technologies and spin out companies into larger premises. I was at the technium last week, where Welsh energy sector training, or WEST—which brings together the private sector, universities such as Swansea university, Bangor university, the university of Glamorgan and the Welsh school of architecture—highlighted specific areas in which it thinks the private sector can become actively involved. WEST is also getting involved, rightly, in encouraging the private sector to expand training for technicians in installing renewable technology and so on, because we in Wales must address the skills gap. It is important to have technologists—not just graduates but people who have the hands-on skills required to develop a modern economy, particularly in renewable energy. We are trying to encourage people to install renewable energy in their homes, so it is important that we have qualified technologists to do so.
	The hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit pik) said that Wales was becoming a capital for renewable energy development. In my constituency, apart from technium, a UK aerospace company in Pembroke dock is building wind turbines on a smaller scale for domestic and small commercial use. The Bluestone project will be heated and powered by a miscanthus-fired boiler system which will heat the water world and provide 1.5 MW of power. It will be the biggest renewable-fired system in Wales, and will be considered as a pilot for other large projects.
	We as a Government need to incentivise people to change their habits and make the investment needed in alternative energy and microgeneration. I am thinking of the experience in Germany in particular, where they have a feed-in tariff, and of the take-up there of photovoltaic energy, for example. Much of Germany's PV technology is manufactured in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas); I have visited the Sharp factory. Sharp management say that Germany is their biggest market, because of the feed-in tariff. We as a Government must address that issue, so that we can incentivise people.

Lembit �pik: On that point, I tend to agree that rejecting feed-in tariffs was a mistake by the Government, but it is a reparable mistake, and I suspect that it can be repaired through lobbying. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that in order to make feed-in tariffs effective, we need smart meters? I submitted to the Secretary of State for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform a strong rationale for introducing smart meters. Does he agree that we should be lobbying for them in Wales and throughout the UK?

Nick Ainger: I do not argue with the hon. Gentleman on that point. Let me turn to energy prices and their impact on my constituency, and the wider issue of fuel poverty. In 2004, Brent crude cost $30 a barrel, but today it costs just under $100 a barrel. That has affected more than just our industry. Given that the price of oil has more than doubled, it is remarkable how resilient our economy has been, but the effect on our domestic energy market has been quite dramatic. Production costs for crude oil have not changed much, so there has been a significant increase in oil companies' profits. The latest figures show that profits for Shell were $27.5 billion, for BP $16.2 billion, for Exxon Mobil $40 billion, and for Chevron $4.8 billion in the last quarter of 2007.
	Energy suppliers' profits have increased significantly, too. British Gas's profits are up 40 per cent. at 1.9 billion, and National Power's profits are up 41 per cent. at 500 million. That high level of profitability has enabled huge investment in Pembrokeshire. Probably more than 1 billion has been invested in the two liquefied natural gas terminals in the constituency of the hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Mr. Crabb), and there has been construction of a 120-mile high-pressure gas pipeline. That has undoubtedly brought local benefits. However, the real impact is on domestic bills. The average annual cost of gas has risen from 370 to 569a 54 per cent. increase. Electricity prices are up 38 per cent. Heating oil prices more than doubled over the period in question, too. The effect has been an increase in fuel poverty.
	My right hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Mr. Touhig) last night hosted a meeting with National Energy Action Cymru, which gave us some interesting information. There is no question but that the winter fuel allowance has been a huge success in addressing and reducing fuel poverty, but given the high price risesit is unlikely that there will be significant fallsthe number of people in fuel poverty in Wales is likely to increase substantially. It increased between 2004 and 2006 by over 100,000, and for every 10 per cent. rise in energy costs, 48,000 more people in Wales go into fuel poverty.
	I agree with suggestions that the first thing that we should do is ensure that energy suppliers do not apply a surcharge to those who have prepayment meters. On average, people who use a prepayment meter pay 127 more than those who pay by direct debit, although they are among the poorest people. We should make sure that all the energy suppliers end that surchargethat penalty on being poor in Wales. and on using a prepayment meter. One supplier has already done so.
	We should consider extending the winter fuel payment to those who are on benefitswho are in receipt of jobseeker's allowance or some sort of disability payment but are below the age of 60. Not many people know about the social tariff, but it enables people to get 20 per cent. off their energy billthat is provided by the energy supplierand free insulation on their property if they can show that they are vulnerable and in fuel poverty. What is preventing that from being rolled out to far more people is the reluctance to exchange information between the Department for Work and Pensions, local authorities and the energy suppliers. That must be addressed.
	The excess profits being made by the oil industry and the energy suppliers could fund a national energy efficiency agency. If the income of the oil industry and the energy suppliers were top-sliced, that could be dedicated to making the existing housing stock fuel efficient, thereby tackling fuel poverty and climate change and developing fuel poverty payments.
	One of the issues that concerns me greatly is that people, in many cases retired, who live in rural parts of Wales and are not connected to the gas supply are totally dependent on oil-fired central heating. As I said, the price of heating oil in the past four years has gone from 20p a litre to 42p a litre, or even higher. We have not seen a change in the winter fuel allowance. I believe that the oil industry has a moral duty to start a social tariff, in the same way as have the other energy suppliers, in order to address that problem.

Elfyn Llwyd: Of course I agree with the hon. Gentleman and make no bones about that, but I am addressing another subject. I hope he agrees with what I am saying about that, as I agree with him on this. Our priority for that part of Wales is to ensure that the economy is as buoyant as it possibly can be and the main ingredient clearly must be well paid jobs.
	I met the Secretary of State to discuss these matters on 6 February; in fairness, he pledged that he would take them up with ministerial colleagues. I have no doubt that he will do so, but when the Under-Secretary winds up the debate, perhaps he will tell us whether there is any good news yet. I certainly know the right hon. Gentleman well enough to know that if he says he will discuss the matter, he will.
	Today, however, we hear that Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency staff in Swansea have discovered that they are grossly underpaid in comparison with their colleagues in England. That, I am afraid, is another reason why Wales is different. DVLA workers in Swansea are paid 15,725 in comparison with 18,050 with workers over the bordernot in London, but just over the border. The total saving to the Exchequer from that is 17 millionmoney saved by underpaying hard workers down in Swansea. As Sian Wiblin of the Public and Commercial Services Union said:
	The situation of the DVLA staff highlights the madness of civil service pay arrangements which fail to provide adequate rewards to thousands of hard-working public servants.
	I strongly believe that that must be reversed. We must not allow regional pay to dominate; if it does, we shall never get anything real out of objective 1. If we are not very careful, we will unfortunately become a sweat shop economy. I am sure that no one in the House or outside it would like that.
	Let me cite the editorial comment in today's edition of the  Western Mail:
	Paying less in Objective One areas would also defy the logic of that EU designation.
	It goes on to say that the objective 1 money is meant
	to kick start economic growth. But GDP levels will never go up if regional pay becomes the norm. On a related matter, the plans to cut public sector jobsat HMRC and the Department for Work and Pensions in Objective One areas suggest one arm of the Government isn't aware what another is doing. What is the point of trying to bring jobs to West Wales and the Valleys through one government scheme and taking them away with another?
	Clearly, that is nonsense, so I hope that at some point Ministers will make strong representations to their colleagues because, as the  Western Mail says, this is a step backwards at a time when Wales is striving to become a dynamic modern economy. As the paper concludes:
	It's an idea that should be stopped in its tracks.
	There are many dynamic aspects of Wales today. We have already talked about the university sector. I am playing a small part in bringing industry into proper negotiation and partnership with Bangor university, and I am proud that other universities in Wales are doing the same. We have referred to the great honour bestowed on Cardiff for its two Nobel prize winners. There is no doubt that we are doing well and I am not talking the country down, but there are problems. They are man-made and they can be dealt with. If we can use objective 1 money to create a better economy, we can ensure that that happens without doing anything to damage the economy. Otherwise, we are all wasting our time.
	I want to mention the issue of compensation for foot and mouth disease. Reference was made earlier to the somewhat cynical way in which mention of compensation for Wales was included in the first draft of a speech, but disappeared the following week when it became clear that no election was going to be called. Last week, the Minister Elin Jones announced an 8.8 million compensation package for sheep farmers in respect of the outbreak of foot and mouth in England last year. That is welcome, although Brynle Williams, representing the Conservatives in the Assembly, said that it somehow underpaid the farmers, selling them short. If he paused for thought, even he might realise that 12.5 million paid in England and 8.8 million paid in Wales is not too bad a comparative figure, especially when it comes from a budget rather than from the Treasury. Of course, we all know that the Government were directly responsible for the outbreak in the first place. Common sense dictates that the Government should have bailed Wales out, but in any event the money was found, and although I do not suggest it is a silver bullet that will immediately deal with all the problems, it will go some way towards dealing with them.

Ian Lucas: May I take the opportunity, like many others today, to pay tribute to the work of the former Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr. Hain), who worked assiduously for Wales? We have had the odd policy disagreement from time to time, but he has always worked with patience and good humour and he is one of the best political campaigners I have ever come across. Wales is fortunate indeed in having my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy) as his successor. His political skills are respected on all sides of the House. He also agrees with me that what matters most to the people we are sent here to represent are the services that Government help to provide to those constituents. For that reason, I intend to concentrate on the delivery of public services in one form or another today.
	If there is a big political issue in Wrexham, my constituents get in touch with me. I hear about it from them pretty quickly and their strength of feeling is apparent. I recall that one such issue was the Government's ill-fated proposal for a single police force for Wales, a policy that was strongly opposed by Labour MPs in north Wales who, I believe, had a major effect upon the eventual decision.
	Another such issue is the delivery of specialist services in our NHS. Before I came to this place, I worked as a non-executive director at the Robert Jones and Agnes Hunt orthopaedic and district hospital at Gobowen in Shropshire, which has been referred to today. Within that hospital is the Midlands and North Wales centre for spinal injuries, headed by my very good friend Mr. Wagih El Masry, a consultant who, with his colleagues, achieves miraculous recoveries for many people who suffer catastrophic injuries in accidents. His skills have been developed over decades and are shared in only eight other centres in the UK. There is no comparable centre in north Wales. I have constituents who are walking today only because of the skill of the staff there.
	We all value medical services that are close to our homes but we understand that specialist skills can be developed only in specialist centres. Increasingly, the requirements of Royal Colleges dictate that those skills be delivered only in specialist centres. My constituents understand this and no constituent has contacted me to ask that those services should be delivered only in Wrexham. On the other hand, I have been contacted by constituents who are concerned that specialist services may be withdrawn from them because those services are based in England. I have heard from Wrexham residents who were treated at Broadgreen in Liverpool for heart surgery

Dai Davies: I am pleased to be able to make a contribution to this debate on behalf of my constituents. I thank the Secretary of State for the work that he has done for Wales in general and for higher and further education in my constituency, and for the time that he has spent in our local college of knowledge.
	We have heard about the importance of education and training. I hope everyone agrees that although previously our area relied primarily on two industriescoal and steelthe training provided through the steel industry was and is second to none. There is much to be learned and gained from examining the apprenticeship and production training structure in the plants at Port Talbot and Llanwern in particular, and Trostre, and the training methods used.
	The first issue I want to raise is local government funding. We have heard that there are strains on local government, given reductions in some of the finances available. I thank the Secretary of State for writing to me recently on the Barnett formula. Although I accept that significant sums have been poured into Wales, I ask hon. Members to examine a report issued by The Alliance in December. The Alliance is a group of local government representatives backed by the Labour Back-Bench group on regeneration. The report shows that although there has been an improvement in some areas, the gap between those who have the most and those who have the least is the same as it was eight or 10 years ago.
	The two areas that feature highly in the report are Blaenau Gwent and Merthyr Tydfil, so it is important to review the Barnett formula. We should not throw the baby out with the bathwater, but I urge the Government to take part in that review, alongside the Welsh Assembly Government. I have copies of the report, if anyone wishes to obtain one.
	The second issue is incapacity benefit. We would all agree that we want those who can work to be in work. However, the approach that is being taken to drive the numbers down is wrong. I recently met a constituent, aged 64 and a halfpeople come off incapacity benefit at 65who has been on the benefit for 10 years. He is supported by his GP, but he has been told by a board that he is fit for work. How can I explain that to him when he says, I have not improved in 10 years. My health is not much better, the arthritis is worse and my back is still bad.? We cannot tell such people that they are now fit, especially if their GP supports their claim.
	I hope that we can take a slightly different approach. We do need to examine those on incapacity benefit, but we also need to examine how they get on the benefit in the first place. For years, in areas such as mine, people would come out of a traditional heavy industry and go on to incapacity benefit. That mentality has continued, so it is not just a case of getting people off the benefit, but of examining who is put on it and seeing how we can help them. Often, there are jobs that they could do.

Paul Flynn: Trying to deal with the source of supply is utterly futile. The Columbian authorities have been trying for 30 years, and we are seeing the Columbianisation of Afghanistan. The British taxpayer has spent 250 million in Afghanistan and the lives of many of our soldiers have been lost in trying to stop the drugs supply at source. The result is that the production of drugs in Afghanistan last year went up by 60 per cent. and the price of heroin on the streets of Britain is the lowest that it has ever been. It is a complete myth that the supply of drugs can be stopped at source.
	This is an international problem, but we have our problems in Wales as well. However, I am optimistic about our situation. When I walked as a 17-year-old from Grangetown across the docks in Cardiff to Guest, Keen and Nettleford's nail factory where I worked at that time, the landscape was bleak, with cranes and railway lines, and now the place is transformed. We have a wonderful sitethe new bayscape with the Senedd, a jewel of a building.
	A group of people from New York came to see me recently and their teacher told me to ask them their favourite television programme, and it was Torchwood, which has images of Cardiff bay. That is part of what has been going on for the first time for centuries. We have heard some bleak and jaundiced views about devolution, but for the first time for centuries young people, creative, talented and entrepreneurial people, from Wales do not have to come to London to earn their fortune. In fact, the flow is coming the other way, just as the flow of power is coming the other way. That is inevitable, and it will continue. If they say English votes for English Members, so it will happen. The process of devolution will continue, and it cannot be resisted. People may stand in the stream and say no, but the flow will go on from now.
	We will see the results of that in the nation's growing self-confidence and the growing popularity of devolution. John Shortridge recently gave some figures showing that it was accepted in Wales by a hair's breadth, but now the opposition has declined. There are people who have been anti-devolution, who I can recall in 1979 being against the campaign and who will never have anything good to say about devolution, but we can look with optimism at what is happening in our country.
	There are two places that I would like to be tomorrow to see what Dewi Sant would have recognised when he said, Bydd llawen, cadw'r ffyddbe happy, keep the faithalthough he might have been surprised just how many faiths there are in Wales now. The first of those two places, where Welsh life will be in its purest and best form, is the village school in Arfon in Gwynedd. The young children there speak Welsh with great fluency and understanding; language has come down the centuries continuously. It is a miracle that the ancient Welsh language still survives and is still there in such schools. The second place is another school, in Pillgwenlly, Newport. The children there are of every possible hue and from every part of the world. They will be saying their prayers and conducting their St. David's day ceremonies. During prayers, half the class will join their hands together in the Christian way, and the other half according to the Muslim tradition, but they will be saying the same prayers and singing the same songs in both beautiful languages of Wales.

Mark Pritchard: In the light of package 2 having been kicked into the long grass, will the hon. Gentleman revise the employment figures that he and other members of the Labour party have been publishing in Wales? The Welsh people have a right to know the number of jobs that is coming to Wales.

Stephen Crabb: I am very pleased to provide the final Back-Bench contribution to this afternoon's St. David's day debate, which has been interesting. I was particularly impressed with the speech made by the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Mr. Davies). It is fantastic that we have people like him in this Houseslightly different MPs who are free from the complexities of carrying a party label and can be a pure and authentic voice for their communities. That was demonstrated in his strong contribution.
	I was also impressed by the speech made by my neighbour in west Wales, the hon. Member for Carmarthen, West and South Pembrokeshire (Nick Ainger), who is no longer in his place. He brought his expertise to bear, particularly in his analysis of the impact of the increase in fuel prices on our community in west Wales in terms of the increase in fuel poverty and the impact on the private sector.
	For me, the man of the match is the right hon. Member for Islwyn (Mr. Touhig), who made a powerful speech warning of the dangers of separatism. No matter where one stands in the devolution debate, we must take that message on board. There is no question in my mind but that separatism forms the beating heart of much of the current rhetoric from Cardiff bay, but it will provide the glide path to poverty and decline for Wales. We are stronger as part of a strong United Kingdom. That does not mean that I am against devolutionI am not a Conservative party member who calls for the abolition of the Welsh Assemblybut I sign up to the warning expressed by the right hon. Member for Islwyn this afternoon about the dangers of separatism for Wales in the long term.
	I want to discuss two challenges for the Welsh economy. One of them has already been discussed in some detail namely, the skills of the work force in Wales. I want to discuss what needs to happen to upskill the work force to prepare us for the challenges of globalisation so that Wales can benefit from the opportunities offered by globalisation and the new kinds of jobs that will be available in post-industrial countries, such as Wales.
	The fall in unemployment in Wales in recent years is a good thing. Conservative Members do not deny the long-term fall in structural unemployment in Wales in the past 10 to 15 years, which is welcome. However, we must recognise the stubbornly high level of people claiming incapacity benefit and the problem of worklessness. Office for National Statistics figures suggest that in the past 12 months the proportion of people who are economically inactive in Wales has edged up to almost 25 per cent.almost 25 per cent. of the work force in Wales is economically inactive, when we near as damn it have full employment in this country.
	As for young people who are not in education, employment or training, I cannot understand how, at a time when more and more jobs are being created in both the private and public sectors, a growing pool of young people in this country, and particularly in Wales, are effectively doing nothing useful with their lives. I do not understand that situation, which is one of the challenges of our age that we must tackle. Now that he has returned to the Front Bench at the Wales Office, I encourage the new Secretary of State to discuss the issue in detail with his colleagues at Cardiff bay and here at Westminster to focus efforts on tackling that hard-core of young people who indulge in antisocial behaviour and criminality, which have been mentioned this afternoon. We need to direct resources to tackle that problem.
	The other challenge for the economy concerns infrastructure. I disagree with the hon. Member for Carmarthen, West and South Pembrokeshire, who said that investment has been going into infrastructure in Wales. Yes, investment has gone into certain places, but we have not seen high quality, new infrastructure, which is needed throughout the Principality. Every year, the Institute of Civil Engineers produces a state of the nation report that analyses progress on improving infrastructure up and down the country. Every year, it identifies critical weaknesses in infrastructure in Wales. If I can be parochial for a moment, I shall point out that one critical weakness in Welsh infrastructure is the A40, which runs through my constituency and connects the east-west corridor through Wales to Ireland via the ferry service from Fishguard to Rosslare. The A40 is part of the strategic trans-European road network. People from Ireland have told me that the worst section of the strategic trans-European route is the section of the A40 that runs through Pembrokeshire.
	There has for many years been a campaign drawing attention to the need to dual the A40to upgrade that bit of road infrastructure. Unfortunately, despite pleas from the private sector and all the principal employers in Pembrokeshire for that piece of road to be dualled, the Welsh Assembly still closes its ears. It is not interested in discussing that. I ask the new Secretary of State to raise the issue with his colleagues in the Welsh Assembly. It forms an important part of the infrastructure of Wales, linking not only to the ferry port in Fishguard but to Milford Haven, which is now one of the UK's most important oil and gas ports with the two new liquefied natural gas terminals being built there, and to one of the most exciting new tourism projects in the UK: the Bluestone project in the constituency of the hon. Member for Carmarthen, West and South Pembrokeshire. That will create 600 jobs, and it will bring new people to Wales, which will place further burdens on the road infrastructure, so there is a need to improve it.
	Let me turn from physical infrastructure to the need for virtual infrastructure, and specifically broadband. I know we have been around the houses on this matter over the years, but there is still a problem in rural Wales with lack of access to broadband. The Government said at the start of the week that they needed to look at their role in the roll-out of super high-speed broadband throughout the UK, but parts of Wales are still stuck trying to get access even to simple, slow broadband. British Telecom has received significant sums of public money over the past 10 yearstens of millions of pounds from the taxpayerto enable it to upgrade exchanges and to help in rolling out broadband in rural areas. In Wales, it has received more than 5 million.
	Back in 2002, BT was claiming that thanks to the upgrading of exchanges by 2005 there would be 100 per cent. potential access to broadband in Wales. That has not happened because achieving that is about not only upgrading the exchanges, but improving the lines from exchanges to houses. Far too many houses in rural Wales are forced to have shared linesa digital access carrier system that prevents them from accessing broadband. There is an important question that needs to be addressed: if true economic revitalisation is to come to hard-to-reach, peripheral areas such as mine, broadband will be part of the solution, and there is serious work to do to make sure that those parts of Wales can access such technology.
	Finally, let me say a few words about fuel prices. Last week, I spoke to two major hauliers in my constituency. It has become unfashionable in this place to speak up in defence of the haulage industry when there is so much emphasis on climate change, but we need to speak up for it. Road haulage is not going to go away, but British haulage companies could go away, to be replaced by foreign competitors who are able to buy fuel with significantly lower rates of duty attached. The last time I was at Cardiff West service station, it looked like a lorry park for Willy Betz as there were so many lorries from Germany there. There is an increasing number of foreign lorries and haulage operators on Welsh roads.
	Welsh haulage companies are finding it increasingly hard to compete in what is a very difficult marketplace. One of the reasons why it is difficult is the huge increase in fuel costs. Let me make another plea to the Secretary of State: when he discusses potential changes in the Budget with his Cabinet colleagues, will he caution against the extra 2p increase in fuel duty in April? Welsh hauliers need that like they need a hole in the head at this time. There is a good case for holding off from that increase in duty.

David Jones: I do not have the time, but I am sure that it was going to be a good joke.
	The right hon. Member for Islwyn (Mr. Touhig) gave the impression of not being a wholehearted supporter of devolution, but perhaps I do him an injustice. I agreed with him entirely when he stressed the Britishness of the people of Wales. I am sure that almost every hon. Member would agree that we are entirely comfortable with the concept of being both British and Welsh or, if one prefers, Welsh and British. It does not really matter in which order one puts them; it is very much the same thing. Possibly there are a couple of exceptions in the Chamber, but that is their private grief. He also said that we should not be doing too much navel-gazing about constitutional matters in Wales, and that we need to invest in upskilling. He is, of course, entirely right. He ended with dire warnings about the threats posed by separatism to the integrity of the United Kingdom.
	Thentalking of separatismwe heard from the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd), who accused the right hon. Member for Islwyn of possibly talking Wales down, but who then made a bleak and gloomy speech about the woes facing Wales. However, he did make a perfectly valid point about post office closures. He is right that particularly in rural areas, the post office is the focal point of the community. It is perhaps surprising that we heard only today that Cabinet members are presiding over the closure process while pleading at a domestic level for the survival of post offices in their own constituencies.
	The hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) made a speech in which he referred to the delivery of cross-border services. He is entirely right that in north Wales we depend heavily on cross-border services, particularly medical services. I echo what he sayswe rely on the services of such important institutions as the Robert Jones and Agnes Hunt hospital in Oswestry, Alder Hey children's hospital, the Walton centre in Fazakerley, the Clatterbridge centre, the Christie hospital and so onbut I remind him gently, as I did in my intervention, that the concerns about Walton were generated by remarks made by the Labour Health Minister in the Welsh Assembly. Perhaps, as he has such influence, he could have a gentle word with her and point out that the concerns have not gone away entirely.
	The hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Mr. Davies) made a speech in which he referred to the concerns of his constituency, and he mentioned incapacity benefit and expressed anxiety about the Government's approach to it. He also banged the drum for the south Wales valleys and said that they had great tourism potential. The hon. Member for Newport, West (Paul Flynn) made a speech in which he referred to his constituency and the exciting pioneering work done by Welsh researchers in biotechnology. He also mentioned his concerns about drugs and drug policy. My hon. Friend the Member for St. Albans (Anne Main) spoke about her childhood in Wales and the regeneration of Cardiff, which we all welcome. However, she sounded a cautionary note when she referred to social problems that she had observed and the need for stronger policing. The hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan (John Smith) discussed the important development of the military training academy at St. Athan and the opportunities that it would afford for the local economy. He has campaigned for that development for some years.
	The hon. Member for Caernarfon (Hywel Williams) referred to his interesting website, Wikideddfu, and spoke of the need for a new Welsh Language Act. We in the Conservative party yield to no one in our support for the Welsh languageit was that distinguished Welsh Conservative, Lord Roberts of Conway, who steered the Welsh Language Act 1993 through Parliamentbut I must say despite that fact that we must be careful that any further developments in Welsh language legislation do not have an impact on business or amount to non-tariff barriers to private enterprise.
	The hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) made an interesting and erudite speech about climate change and flooding problems, referring to the important work of the Llanelli flooding forum. Finally, my hon. Friend the hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Mr. Crabb) echoed the words of the right hon. Member for Islwyn on the dangers of separatism and spoke of the challenges to the Welsh economy, the blight of economic inactivity and the need to improve infrastructure, particularly in his constituency.
	We have had an interesting, wide-ranging debate, illustrating not only the important issues facing the people of Wales, but the diversity of the interests of those who represent them. It is an occasion on which all of us, of whatever party, can celebrate our Welshness. For Saturday, I wish everybody dydd gwyl Ddewi da.